Tag Archives: Faith

Skeptics Answered: what About Other “Gospels”?

(Folks, sorry for the weirdness in font…I can’t figure out why it changes and how to make it uniform.  I did some copying and pasting from some other documents I’ve written, so perhaps that’s it.  At any rate, I don’t know how to fix it, so I hope it’s not too much a burden on your eyes).

It’s been a while since I did a “Skeptics Answered” post.  If you’ll remember, a looooong time ago I made a call to skeptics out there to give me their best shot in terms of objections to the Christian worldview.  I’ve done several posts answering the challenges I received, and now, since I’m on spring break, I’ll manage a few more.

One challenge I received was this one:

When there are 13 Gospels(experts claim it to be more), why did only 4 make it into the Bible. Why where the other rejected? Is it simply because it did not contain anything important or it really contained something important? This is a clear indication of how fake the Bible is. The latest discoveries indicate how each Gopsel contradicts the others. For example, when all gospels in the Bible say “Judas betrayed Jesus,” why does the Gospel of Judas say, “Jesus asked him to do so”?

There’s a lot to unpack here.  First, the dichotomy is somewhat confusing. As it stands, his challenge doesn’t make much sense, but I think I know what he’s asking.  Why did the four Gospels (and the other books of the NT) included in the canon, whereas the other books and “gospels” didn’t?

The challenger references a common narrative: that there are a plethora of other “gospels” that were suppressed by men in power to preserve their own beliefs and positions of influence.  Some, like Leigh Teabing in the Da Vinci Code, claim there were over 80 gospels!

Usually, the number of other “gospels” is grossly exaggerated, but no matter the number, there’s no reason to assume a conspiracy of suppression.

There is a very simple reason Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were included into the canon, whereas the others were not: the four canonical Gospels were and are the most reliable and therefore the most widely used and authoritative.

First, MMLJ (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) were the earliest written, even if you assume a late date of writing (some scholars, for instance, date the Gospel of John to around the early 90s.  This is a later date than others, including myself, argue for.).  The others, often forgeries, came much later.  The “Gospel” of Thomas is a prime example, having been written in either the late second or early third centuries.

Secondly, MMLJ had an apostolic connection: they were either written by eyewitnesses to Jesus’ life or were compiled by those who were closely associated with these eyewitnesses and were under their tutelage.  Some are skeptical of traditional authorship, but the testimony of history as well as internal evidence solidly points to the traditional view of authorship.


For example, both Papias and Irenaeus, two early church fathers, defended Matthew as the author of, ummm, Matthew.  In addition, the Gospel of Matthew has more references to money than any of the other Gospels.  It was written in a highly, highly structured way.  Both these facts comport well with Matthean authorship, who was known to be a former tax collector.

This is a commonsense standard of authority–it stands to reason that those who are closest to the events in question are usually the most reliable.


Thirdly, one just needs to read the non-canonical documents and compare them with MMLJ.  They often contain downright crazy things.  Here’s an example from the “Gospel” of Thomas:

Simon Peter said to them, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of Life.”  Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males.  For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”

Every once and a while in the mainstream media, a report comes out about the Gospel of Thomas. The report usually intimates that Thomas’ list of sayings is at least as reliable than the four canonical gospels.  Most of the time, though, the news story fails to mention the above passage.

Another example (among countless others) is the Gospel of Truth.  The following is typical of this writing:

He became a fruit of the knowledge of the Father.  It did not, however, cause destruction because it was eaten, but to those who ate it it gave cause to become glad in the discovery, and he discovered them in himself, and they discovered him in themselves, the Father, the perfect one, the one who made the totality, within him is the totality and of him the totality has need.  The Father was not jealous.  What jealousy indeed (could there be) between himself and his members?  It is he who fashioned the totality, and within him is the totality and the totality was in need of him.

Who knows what that’s all about.  Pretty esoteric.

Others have wild narratives in them.  The resurrection account in the Gospel of Peter, for instance (another later forgery), features a giant Jesus and a talking cross:

<9.34>Early in the morning, when the Sabbath dawned, there came a crowd from Jerusalem and the county round about to see the sepulchre that had been sealed.  <35>Now in the night in which the Lord’s day dawned, when the soldiers, two by two in every watch, were keeping guard, there rang out a loud voice in heaven, <36>and they saw the heavens opened and two men come down from there in a great brightness and draw nigh to the sepulchre. <37>That stone which had been laid against the entrance to the sepulchre started to roll and give way to the side, and the sepulchre was opened, and both the young men entered in. <10.38>When now those soldiers saw this, they awakened the centurion and the elders — for they also were there to assist at the watch. <39>And whilst they were relating what they had seen, they saw three men come out from the sepulchre, and two of them sustaining the other, and a cross following them, <40>and the heads of the two reaching to heaven, but that of him who was led of them by the hand overpassing the heavens. <41>And they heard a voice out of the heavens crying, ‘Thou hast preached to them that sleep,’ <42>and from the cross there was heard the answer, ‘Yea.’

Not only is there a giant Jesus and a talking cross, but a whole crowd of folks gathered on that day to watch the spectacle!

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry!

Seriously, though, this is much, much different from the canonical gospels.

In fact, the only four that were ever taken remotely seriously by the early church were MMLJ.  Yes, some radical sects, like gnostic sects, latched onto some of the lesser reliable documents, but the reason why they were not taken seriously is because they were just not that reliable.  There was no power grab.  Indeed, the church at that time didn’t have much power.  The debate was won by good ‘ol fashioned argument.

From the very beginning, MMLJ enjoyed a wide circulation and use.  The earliest church fathers, writing around the end of the first or very beginning of the second (Clement and Polycarp are two examples), quoted from them often and highly honored them in a similar way to the OT Scriptures.  In addition, the amount of manuscript copies we have of MMLJ is gigundous compared to any of the others.  This underscores their authority and use.  If they weren’t valued highly, there wouldn’t be so many manuscripts that have been preserved.

Here is a quote from Mark Roberts, author of Can We Trust the Gospels?, on early testimony about the four gospels:

In the second half of the second century, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John became a foursome, to borrow a term from golf. We have evidence from various kinds of writings from this period, all of which points to the unique position given to these four writings:

Tatian’s Diastessaron: Around 170 A.D., a Syrian church leader named Tatian took Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and made one cumulative gospel, called the Diatessaron (from Greek, meaning, “one-through-four”). Tatian did not use any of the Gnostic gospels in his harmony.

The Muratorian Fragment: In 1740 Lodovico Antonio Muratori published a list of New Testament documents he had found in an eighth-century manuscript. Most scholars date the first writing of this list to around 170 A.D. Though the first part of the list is incomplete, it certainly included Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Here’s how the existing list begins:

. . . at which nevertheless he was present, and so he placed [them in his narrative]. The third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke. Luke, the well-known physician, after the ascension of Christ, when Paul had taken with him as one zealous for the law composed it in his own name, according to [the general] belief. Yet he himself had not seen the Lord in the flesh; and therefore, as he was able to ascertain events, so indeed he begins to tell the story from the birth of John. The fourth of the Gospels is that of John, [one] of the disciples. . . . (emphasis added)

Irenaeus in Against Heresies: Writing around 180 A.D., Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote a book refuting Gnostic and other Christian theologies he considered to be incorrect. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus acknowledges that the Gnostics wrote their own sacred works, but he recognizes four and only four gospels as authoritative. Here are a couple of excerpts from Against Heresies:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia. (Against Heresies 3.1.1; emphasis added)

It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the “pillar and ground” of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. (Against Heresies 3.11.8; emphasis added)

Thus from a wide range of sources and genres of writing, we learn that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were held in high esteem in the late second-century church, and that they were considered authoritative alongside the books of the Old Testament.

The authority of the four were pretty much unquestioned until Marcion came along in the mid second century.

Marcion was very influential in church history, but in an ironic sense.  He wrote in the mid second century.  He favored Christ, but saw a distinction between the god of Christ and the god of the Old Testament.  He loved the former but despised the latter, seeing the OT god as a lesser, false god because he created the evil world in his own image.

Marcion therefore sought to expunge all Jewish influence from Christianity.  He published a much truncated list of books, editing them according to his narrow theology.  His canon included Paul’s letters (minus any OT quotations) and a shortened version of Luke (again, without any reference to the OT).

Along with the writings of  Valentinus, a gnostic, who also published a list of sacred books, Marcion’s canon made the church at the time wake up.  Though there was no official list of authoritative books at the time, the church knew enough to sense that these two men did not accurately represent the church’s history and origin.  Marcion and Valentinus’ respective canons were a dramatic departure from what the church had practiced, believed, and cherished from the beginning.  Thus the church had to defend and explain what it already implicitly recognized; the effort to officially state a canon was underway.

In the early fourth century, Eusebius described four categories of documents:  the accepted writings, the disputed writings, the rejected writings, and the unworthy-of-mention writings. The majority of our NT books today were widely accepted (20 of the 27, including all four gospels).  The disputed writings included James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, whereas Revelation was accepted by some but rejected by others.  Those in the “unworthy-of-mention” category included the “Gospel” of Peter and the “Gospel” of Thomas.

Athanasius, in his Festal Letter of 367, was the first to list all 27 and only the 27 books of the New Testament.

In summary, many assume that the New Testament came to be through a single decree from a very politically powerful group of men.  These men, popular opinion continues, set several documents before them, and debated the merits of each, deciding in the end which belonged in the Bible and which did not.

However, though a Council decision did come into play at the very end, the canon was formed via a long, organic process.  NT scholar F.F Bruce, commenting on the overall history of the formation, says,

When at last a Church Council–the Synod of Hippo in A.D. 393–listed the twenty-seven books of the NT, it did not confer upon them any authority which they did not already possess, but simply recorded their previously established canonicity.  As Dr. Foakes-Jackson puts it: ‘The  Church assuredly did not make the New Testament; the two grew up together.’

Bruce Metzger, another NT scholar, calls it a “long, continuous process.” During this process, books and epistles were not merely gathered; they were analyzed, weighed, and either used or rejected.

That is a brief sketch.  I recommend the following books if you want more detail (the quotes from Bruce and Metzger were taken from these books):

F.F Bruce, The Books and the Parchments: How we got our English Bible

Bruce Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance

I also recommend the following internet articles:

The DaVinci Code Cracks, by Greg Koukl (ID: pugnacious, Password: Irishman)

The DaVinci Opportunity, by Mark D. Roberts

The Gospel of Judas: a Special Report, by Mark D. Roberts

When were the NT Documents Written? by Mark D. Roberts

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He is Risen…

…____  __ ______ ______!

You are probably reading this on Monday…..so I’m posting on Easter a bit late…my bad.  The blogosphere can wait on this most holy day.

I hope your Easter was filled with rest, time with family and friends, and, most importantly, quiet reflection on the significance of what happened nearly 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem.

As my pastor said this morning, Easter is either the greatest hoax thought up by man, or is the grandest historical fact ever.  There is no in between.

One Who Needs no Introduction

Comedian Steve Harvey “introduces Jesus Christ.”  Priceless.

HT: Stand to Reason

Craig/Hitchens Live Tweet PBP

Here is my play by play from Twitter.  If you combine this with Melinda Penner’s PBP, you can get a pretty good picture of how the night turned out.  Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I am more familiar with Craig (though I’ve seen Hitchens before and read one of his books) and he was more linear in thought, so I have more tweets from Craig than I do Hitchens.  Not trying to snub Hitch.  See my review.

BTW, seems like the consensus on atheist blogs is that Craig won the debate only because he is a skillful debater.

Heavens….ta…mergatroy.  I find this incredibly disingenuous.  That’s kind of like whining, “uh, yeah, we woulda crushed you guys if our linebacker wasn’t injured.”  Or better yet: “we woulda crushed you guys if our water boy wasn’t sick.”

Maybe, just maybe, Bill Craig does well because he has a solid case.  What happened on April 4 has happened many times over; it is not an isolated incident.  While he has had even-handed debates with a few atheists out there, and while there’s no doubt his debate skills help him, if his arguments are as weak as you guys keep saying they are, then someone with the intellect of a Hitchens or Carrier would easily be able to spot the flaws and take advantage of them.  They’d easily smoke him, instead of looking so unprepared.  Perhaps truth has something to do with it.  Just a thought.

Anyway, on with the show:

Holy smokes! 3 hours before the debate and the line is almost around the building.

I just got interviewed for a documentary about the Hitchens/Craig debate. What fun! The atmosphere is electric.

Good to hear you are moderating, Hugh. I’m excited for it all.

I just walked past Hitchens sitting in Biola’s coffee shop.

I’ve been to many debates and I’ve never seen anything like this. Over an hour before the debate and the crowd is huge.

I just sat down. It’s packed tight as sardines.

There is a notes handout giving Craig’s basic premises, but the sheet for Hitchens is blank. Interesting.

Ready to go. Hazen just noted that this is being seen in over 30 states and 4 countries. Hello Stockholm and Sri Lanka!

Hazen is cracking jokes left and right. That’s why I like the guy.

Hazen is introducing Hewitt. Glad he’s moderating. He knows both gentlemen well.

Hitchens on stage. He has a pair of bananas with him, and is smiling wrly…hmmm

Craig opening statement…commends Hitchens for coming into this “den of lambs.” lol

Craig: says he will approach question philosophically.

Craig: no good argument that atheism is true. There are good arguments that theism is true. Debate not about social effects of religion.

Craig: going into his five arguments. There is nothing new here. He’s been making the same opening stmt for the last 20 yrs.

Craig: cosmological argument: the universe began finite time ago, not eternal.  An actual infinite is impossible.

Craig: atheist proponent of big bang must believe universe began out of nothing. Where did the universe come from?

Craig: cause must be personal, beyond space and time, causeless.

Craig: cosmological argument gives us a personal creator of universe.

Craig teleological argument–constants in universe fall into a very narrow range. Possible sources: physical necessity, chance, or design.

Craig: life prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than non life prohibiting universes.

Craig: constants not due to chance or law.

Craig: debunking multiverse theory for chance.

Craig: no independent evidence for multiverse.  Also, if we are part of multiverse, we’d be observing a different universe.

Craig: moral argument.

Craig: if God does not exist, objective moral values don’t exist. The definition of objective moral value–binding no matter whether we agree.

Craig: citing Hitchens to bolster premise 1 of moral argument–moral values are part of social convention on atheistic view.

Craig: now tackling argument from resurrection.

Craig: If Jesus did rise from the dead, we have a divine miracle and hence evidence of God’s existence.

Craig: there are three facts that most NT historians agree happened. The best explanation is that God raised Jesus from dead.

Craig: going into 3 facts now. He is citing skeptical NT historians who agree with 3 facts.

Craig: attempts to explain 3 facts, like “disciples stole body” have been universally rejected by NT scholarship.

Craig: immediate experience of God…not really an argument, but that you can know God exists wholly apart from arguments.

Craig: examples of properly basic beliefs that can’t be proved–existence of the past.

Craig: that doesn’t mean they are arbitrary though…they are grounded in experience. Belief in God is the same.

Craig: God will reveal himself to those who will listen.

Craig: Hitchens must do away with Craig’s arguments and erect counter arguments for his own case.

Craig: therefore, theism is more probable.

Hitchens giving opening statement now.

Hitchens: arguments all essentially same no matter who you are arguing with–Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc.

Hitchens: there is a distinction between an evidentialist and a presuppositionalist that is a false distinction.

Hitchens: if we were having this debate in 19th century, Craig would know next to nothing about physics.

Hitchens: therefore he would have then grounded his beliefs in faith, scripture, or natural theology.

Hitchens: now it is demonstrated that we are not designed. We evolved through random mutation and natural selection.

Hitchens: now theists say evolution is part of the design. They have changed their argument. This suggests Craig’s arguments are ad hoc.

Hitchens: test of a good argument is that it’s falsifiable. Changing the argument therefore is a bad sign.

Hitchens: “retrospective” evidentialism–everything, in due time, can fit in our worldview. Says this is bogus.

Hitchens: talking about large extinction numbers as evidence that there’s no design.

Hitchens: DNA in common with other species evidence of evolution.

Hitchens: We came perilously close to joining the species that have become extinct.

Hitchens: how is all this extinction and death the will of a good powerful Being?

Hitchens: can we believe that all that was done with us in view?

Hitchens: this is a “peculiar case of solipsism” and it’s arrogant. Like saying “at least we are here.” doesn’t work for Hitchens.

Hitchens: Craig saying atheists try to disprove God is a misrepresentation of atheism.

Hitchens: Can’t get from deism to a “God that cares” for humans.

Hitchens: Dr. Craig must show “Certainty.” must show that there “must” be a God.

Hitchens: Hitch himself only has to appear as a skeptic….my thought: this is pure bosh.

my thought: absence of evidence doesn’t show evidence of absence. hitch is being presumptuous.

Hitchens: citing Craig now in support–witness of H.S must take precedence over arguments and evidence.

Hitchens: still citing Craig in support of Hitch’s contention–men are without excuse, therefore…

Hitchens: you are a miserable sinner, but take heart..the universe was designed with you in mind.

Hitchens: these two things are incompatible.

Hitchens: this shows that evidence is of secondary important…’we’ll take it if its avail but its not needed.’

Hitchens: this shows that belief is based on faith.

Hitchens: talking about times when religion has been wrong in science in the past…not clear what his point is.

Hitchens: most physicists are uncertain about spatial temporal elements of big bang.

Hitchens: was there pre existing material for being to work with or did he will it? Who designed the designer?

my thought: who designed designer–yaaaawwwwnnnn.

my thought: hitch using moral terms like capricious, cruel, etc in relation to universe.

my thought: wondering how he grounds such strong moral terms in his atheistic worldview.

Hitchens: pointing to ‘capriciousness’ of design as counter point to teleological argument.

Hitchens: ‘capriciousness not due to fine tuning and designer would be guilty of crime.

Craig rebuttal

Craig: hitch agreed that there is no good argument that atheism is true.

Craig: that doesn’t prove atheism…only agnosticism at best.

Craig: theory of biological evolution is irrelevant to theism.

Craig: no need for believers in scripture to hold to special creation, nor is it a retreat caused by modern science.

Craig: Augustine suggested there is no need to take days in Genesis as periods of 24 hours.

Craig: his doubts in evolution are scientific, not religious.

Craig: “if evolution did occur, it would be a miracle.” He gave numbers for us to grasp the improbability.

Craig: theist open to following evidence where it leads, but for the naturalist–”evolution is the only game in town.”

Craig: talking about hitch charge of waste in universe now.

Craig: population of the world at the time of Christ…only 2% came before the advent of Christ.

Craig: in fullness of time God sent his Son.

Craig: stage was set for Christ…shows wisdom of God.

Craig: hitch uses false meaning of deism and theism.

Craig: deism is a specific kind of theism.

Craig: his arguments are a cumulative case for theism.

Craig: says his arguments don’t have to show certainty, counter hitch.

Craig: arguments are the “best explanation,” not certainty. He doesn’t allow hitch to pidgeonhole him.

Craig: appealing to arguments and evidence when “showing” someone that Christianity is true.

Craig: arguments are deductive…premises guarantee conclusions.

Craig: hitch didn’t dispute many of the premises in the arguments.

Craig: counters hitch assertion that scientists are uncertain about fine tuning..giving quotes of phycists.

Craig: temporal duration of something irrelevant to whether it’s designed.

Craig: hitchens himself affirms moral statements…does affirm objective value but without basis.

Craig: no response from hitch to resurrection argument.

Craig: on very solid ground in affirming 3 facts…best explanation is God raised Jesus.

Sorry, my computer shut down a bit so I missed part of Hitch rebuttal

Hitch: don’t need to prove ‘asantaclausism,’ so why should I have to prove atheism?

Hitchens: Craig’s arguments are ad hoc.

Hitchens: if you grant Craig’s arguments, you must grant religions like Mormonism that are different from Christianity.

Hitchens: problem with morality and religion–can’t prove anyone behaves better if they refer to God.

My thought: hitch misunderstands argument…that was a red herring and a non sequitur both.

Hitchens: person of faith has no advantage in moral behavior in explaining morality as God’s product.

Hitchens: talking about golden rule.

Hitchens: moral argument isn’t advanced by saying atheist can’t know morality.

My thought: again, he misses the argument and confuses epistemology with metaphysics and metaethics.

My thought: he does this all the time….gah!

Hitchens: we have freewill…why–I take refuge in “philosophical irony.”

Hitchens: moral argument is degrading just like Christian explanation for free will is.

Hitchens: harping on “heavenly north Korea” now. God takes our decisions away from us.

My thought: he really has a “cosmic authority problem.”  He talks about this in all the places I’ve heard him.

cross examination now

Craig: how do you distinguish the different varieties of non theism..atheism, agnosticism, verificationism, for example?

I missed hitch reply…I was moving and lots of noise

Craig: are you an atheist, or do you merely withhold belief?

Hitch: agnosticism is evasive…hitch waffling.

Craig presses hitch: what is your view?

HItch: seen no evidence, God therefore doesn’t exist.

Craig: do you have justification for affirming God doesn’t exist?

craig: do you agree that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

Hitch: not talking about unicorns, but a big authority.

Hitch: evidence for God must be magnificent.

I reached my tweet limit and Twitter wouldn’t let me tweet, so I missed hitch cross examination…sorry for that. I missed a lot.

Back on now..hitch pressing Craig on which religions and denominations he thinks are wrong.

responses now

Craig: haven’t heard any arguments suggesting atheism is true. hitch gives no argument for God not existing.

Craig: God is not indifferent to people before Christ. God is preparing the world for Christ.

Craig: they will not be condemned if they exercise faith in true God…they will be covered by Christ.

Craig: they will be judged on basis of info they have…we don’t have to judge them.  We can leave it up to a good God.

Craig: going back over his arguments and covering hitch’s response or non response.

Craig: hitch’s objection that moral argument gives religious no advantage is irrelevant.

Craig: actually, worship of God is a moral duty non believers won’t follow.

Craig: but this isn’t the bottom line…hitch provides no basis for any moral values.

Craig: citing Pigliucci, an atheist professor, to buttress premise 1 of the moral argument.

Craig: I offer hitchens a solid transcendent foundation for moral value.

Craig: resurrection now

Craig: says hitch misunderstood resurrection argument…resurrection argument is “so non-Jewish.”

Craig: correction, resurrection  *belief* is “so non-Jewish.”

Craig: talking about his experience now…justifies his beliefs, just as his experience of outside world justifies his belief in outside world.

Hitch response now

Hitch: resurrection argument that it’s so non-Jewish is too easy…did I get that right? There is lots of noise back here in beginning.

Hitch: Miracles of other religions similar to Christian miracle stories.

Hitch “depressingly easy” to get a religion started in uneducated illiterate people.

Hitch: both of challenges in regards to moral argument stand.

Hitch: apartheid had theological backing.

Hitch: Russian nationalism had theological backing too…there are pictures of Stalin with saint’s ring around his head in Russia.

Hitch: religion is the outcome of unresolved material needs…did I get that right?

Hitch: giving an explanation of how religions can be man made.

Hitch: if all religions died out at same time, all our problems would be exactly the same.

My thought: I beg to differ

Hitch: emancipate yourself from God and you’ve taken the first step to becoming free.

Final speech before q&a

Craig: atheism itself is a worldview…it claims to be true alone and therefore is no more tolerant than Christianity.

Craig: Hitch asserts truth of atheism.

Craig: God hypothesis explains a broad range of human experience–moral, scientific, philosophical, etc…that’s what the God hypothesis “gives us.”

Craig: hitch consistently distorted moral argument…changes the subject to “how do we know m.val?” This is irrelevant.

Craig: moral sense that develops, according to atheism, is illusory.

Craig: Craig “invites Hitchens to become a Christian.” priceless. He says all of the evidence is on one side.

Me: yes I’m biased folks.

Craig: impossible for Christianity to flourish with an occupied tomb because the resurrection belief happened in the public sphere.

Craig: makes an evangelical ending.

Q&A now: Hewitt affirms: there are such things as stupid questions. He is not interested in your opinions, people!

q for Hitch

Is it good that the Bible prohibits sex with animals or is that an example of “dangerous sexual repression”?

Hitch reply: if it’s man made, it is then designed to keep women in repression.

Craig: q illustrates that apart from God, whatever is in nature is right.

Sexual ethic in the Bible is good for human beings.  It is not repressive..cites studies about religious people being more sexually happy.

Hitch: who is the designer? Why does nature see to it that so many people are born homosexual?

q for Hitch: questioner rambling…dude, what’s your question?

Hitch: not taking refuge in notion that sometimes religious people do bad things.

Hitch: rather, there are specific religious injunctions that sanction violence, etc

Craig: can’t assess a worldview based on whether its good for society…he’s interested in truth.

Craig: previous point came from Bertrand Russell, an atheist of past..he said that in reference to Christianity’s positive social benefits…this is ironic that Hitch hits on religion’s social detriments so much.

q for both: what is life’s meaning/motivation/purpose in absence of transcendent being?

Hitch: complete nonsense that you can’t have purpose without supernatural being.

q for Craig: how is life without God “absurd”?

Craig: purpose of life isn’t to serve God, but to glorify and *enjoy* him forever.

Craig: there is no *objective* meaning on atheistic view…can have relative, but not objective meaning.

Craig: on atheistic view, any purpose you foist on world is illusory.

Hitch: I’m willing to accept, on evidence, conclusions that make us uncomfortable.

Hitch: meaning of my life is to help people achieve freedom from oppression.

Hitch: railing against “fellow primates” who try to tell him what to do.

Hitch: they know perfectly well that this is the only life we have.

Hitch: if there is going to be a resurrection and all will be righted in the end, why do you care what happens here?

Craig responds to Hitch challenge.

If God exists, humans have intrinsic value and we have reason to treasure them as ends in themselves.

Craig garners applause from crowd.

Hitch: gives alternate explanation for human affection based on humanism: “this is the only life we’ve got.”

Craig: if Christians commit moral atrocities, they are acting inconsistently with their worldview.

Hitch just asked Craig how to explain Christians who do bad things…I think…I missed the exact question.

Hitch hitting on Christians who justified killing Jews based on scriptural injunctions.

Craig: again, Christians were acting inconsistently with Jesus’ ethic.

Hitch: big percentage of folks who took part in final solution were practicing Catholics.

q from Christian “playing devil’s advocate.”

Craig: why can’t God intervene in extreme suffering…problem of evil, in other words.

The existence of God not logically incompatible with exist of evil.

Craig: no philosopher has brought out hidden assumptions that would make it logically contradictory.

Craig: atheists who press the problem of evil do so probabalistically.

Craig: hidden assumption on this view problematic.

Craig: How could the atheist *know* that God would not permit evil in world?

Craig: atheistic probabalistic argument makes hasty judgments.

Craig now hits on the emotional problem of evil.

Craig: God not impersonal ground of being or one who is distant…he suffers with us, enters into human history on the cross.

Craig: cross of Christ puts problem of evil in a different perspective.

Hitch: “I come to you as the only person who has represented the devil pro bono.” funny

Hitch: hitting on a moral atrocity of rape now, and a Christian’s weak reply to what she went through.

Hitch: how could a divine will accede to that?

q from Hewitt now: why do so many people come out to see this kind of debate?

Hitch: emergence of big theocratic challenges in modern world..that’s one explanation.

Hitch reply gets large applause from crowd.

Craig’s answer: we are seeing the ‘fruit of modernity’ that hasn’t brought good things.

Craig: we see bankruptcy of naturalism and the question of God’s existence is now all the more important.

Craig: we are beginning to question naturalism…seeing a revolution in philosophical thought.

Still some wrap up left, but I’m shutting down now…it was fun y’all!

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Craig/Hitchens Debate: an Atheist’s Thoughts

I’ll have my own analysis of the Craig/Hitchens debate coming up.  For now, check out this atheist’s perspective.

I took a gander around his blog.  Looks interesting.  Perhaps we could have some blog discussions in the future.

He put forth a question he wanted  to ask at the

Dr. Craig,

Tonight you’ve argued that objective moral values cannot exist apart from grounding them in the traits and opinions of a particular person. Your choice is Yahweh. That seems like an odd way to get objective moral values, but nevertheless, you’ve elsewhere argued just the opposite: that objective moral values do exist apart from Yahweh.

For example, in your answer to question #61 on your website, you write that abortion is wrong because life has intrinsic moral value – that is, moral value within itself, apart from anything outside it, including the opinions of Yahweh. Is this a discrepancy, or have I misunderstood you?

Short answer: not a discrepancy.  Luke has misunderstood Craig.

(Somewhat) Longer answer: according to the Christian worldview, God is the one that bestows intrinsic dignity on human beings, because the grounding of such dignity is the “imago dei” which is imprinted on humanity.  Without that, there is no intrinsic dignity.   Atheist philosophers have instead usually give humans functional value, but this is far from intrinsic.  Without God, no intrinsic dignity.  Humans are byproducts of an impersonal, mindless force.  There is no more qualitative difference between them and a bag of snakes.  Humans can do more (reason, for example), but this is functional, not intrinsic value, and it just means our material is arranged in a more complex manner.

In the absence of God, we might think humans have intrinsic dignity and we might act like they do, but our beliefs are illusory.

Thus, Luke’s question illegitimately tries to divorce humanity’s intrinsic dignity from its source, and it is not true Craig has argued that objective values exist apart from Yahweh.

One can take the same answer theists give to the Euthyphro dilemma and apply it here (you must scroll down quite a few pages before you get to Copan’s treatment.  The whole paper is a good read, however…also see here and here for Craig’s answer.  ID:  pugnacious. password: irishman).

Also, Luke stacks the deck by the terminology he uses.  He says Craig grounds morality in the “opinions” of a particular person.  This is a straw man, for it makes it seem like Yahweh is just as qualified as you or I in being the ground of morality.  This is far from the case, though.  First, Yahweh’s character is completely holy, righteous, just, and good.  Everyone elses, well…is not.  Secondly, being that Yahweh is a maximally great Being (who created all things), has the proper authority as the ground of morality.  He’s not just an “average joe” like you or I.

Think of it this way:  if I am guilty of a crime before the court, and I argue that the judge is just as qualified to make pronouncements on jurisprudence as I am, wouldn’t that strike you as a bit presumptuous?  He has the proper authority, and he has the proper perspective to judge on the law.  He’s gone to law school and has studied and practiced for years.  I, on the other hand, have not.

It is the same with God.  Being the type of being He is qualifies Him as the authority and ground of morality.  Given His attributes and essential qualities, we’re not talking about a level playing field here, and the way Luke frames the issue makes it seem like we are on equal footing to God.

Check out the following related posts:

The God Delusion book review

God is not Great book review

Hitchens-Turek Debate analysis

Skeptics Answered series (more posts in the series forthcoming in a few weeks)

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Astronomically Intimidated

Do you think this applies to the Church today?

There was a time when the church was very powerful–in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town, the people in power became disturbed and immediately sought to convict the Christians for being “disturbers of the peace” and “outside agitators.”‘ But the Christians pressed on, in the conviction that they were “a colony of heaven,” called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, they were big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be “astronomically intimidated.” By their effort and example they brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contests. Things are different now. So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church’s silent–and often even vocal–sanction of things as they are.

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century.

–Martin Luther King, Jr. “Letter From Birmingham Jail”martinlutherking2

Never a more relevant quote was spoken for the Church today.  It was true in King’s time, and even though we find ourselves in somewhat different circumstances, it is true in ours.

I frequently hear the charge that the church, especially evangelicals, are too politically involved.  I think the opposite is the case.  Just like in King’s day, far too often we are silent, sitting in our living rooms merely twiddling on our XBox controllers and zoning out to the twinkling television.  Don’t get me wrong; there are pockets of light, and we’re doing allright in some areas, like “social gospel” efforts.  However, it may appear as if we are heavily involved in politics, but this is because the media focuses on it.  When they report, we believe.

HT:  Frank Beckwith

What is at Stake?

I had a conversation with a co-worker the other week that tripped me up.  I was talking with a Christian that had absolutely no interest in discussions about whether God exists or not.  He strongly felt that belief in God is a matter of mere belief, and at any rate, if God doesn’t exist, it really doesn’t matter; he’s led a life of peace and goodness, and his (false) belief has made him a better man.

I can’t say I agree, on either count.  I’ve written about my thoughts on his first response–that belief in God is a matter of mere belief not based on evidence–elsewhere (one and two and three).

As far as his second response, I really struggled to reply to him at the time, simply because he was so confident and stalwart in his proclamation.  I tried to make a few small replies, but I got nowhere with him.  I’ve since had some time to think about it.

I hold the question of God to be one of supreme importance.  Why does it matter whether God exists or not?

First, if God really does exist (I’m assuming the God revealed in the Scriptures), then there is real, objective meaning and purpose in life.  There is a God that not only created the world and imbued it with meaning and value, but He loves each and every one of us.  Finally, He has provided a way for us to know Him intimately.  Evil, suffering, and death are dealt death blows by God Himself, and thanks to the Empty Tomb, the grave does not have the final say in our lives.

These are no small benefits.

On the flip side, if God does not exist, you or I might have a meaning in our lives, but this is only a relative meaning.  Objectively speaking, the universe came into being via a mindless, purposeless process, and is doomed to either a heat death or slower, more mundane death.  The world will end with a whimper.  The DNA dictates our existence, and genuine free will is hard to come by.  Even though we might try to foist a meaning upon such an existence, it is tantamount to shuffling chairs on the Titanic.  Death is the end, Hitler and Mother Theresa’s destiny is ultimately the same, and unjust men win most of the time.

All this does not mean that we should merely hedge our bets and assume God exists, but it does put the choices in perspective.  The question of God is no parlor poker game.

The strangest thing is that most people will readily sacrifice all that God offers so they can maintain their own autonomy. True story.

What I’ve considered so far, though, was not the central focus of my co-worker’s comment.  His focus was not, “what are the stakes if he is right?” but “what are the stakes if he is wrong?”

If the atheist is wrong, there is no morally neutral unbelief, intent comes before content, he dies in his sins, only to literally meet the Person he spent a lifetime denying….things will get considerably worse from there.

If the theist is wrong, though, he is an idolator.  He has spent his time, energy, and talents chasing and grasping onto a foolish falsehood.  He has attempted to persuade others to put their hopes in a facade, to give their livelihoods towards something that is, at best, a psychological placebo.

This does not mean we should forever withhold belief in either direction.  That, after all, is not possible in the long run…you will always live like one or the other is true.  In addition, if you were lost on a high, snowy, freezing mountain, and you came to a fork, you could not remain agnostic for very long.  You’d have to decide quickly, for you would not survive after the sun went down.  It is the same for us spiritually.

All this does not tip the scales either way as to which side is more reasonable, but it does help us zero in on the stakes involved.  Either way, believing in a falsehood has dire consequences.  Ignorance is not bliss.

See the following related post:

What is Faith?

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