Tag Archives: Bible

Narrating the Debate

I was tooling around in the comments section of my Bible Verse Twisting post, and I want to “narrate the debate” so to speak and give you a few insights. Most are actually points I’ve made before, but I need to emphasize them better, and they were displayed beautifully in the comments to that post.

Almost right away in the comments, folks started making the very statement that I addressed in the main part of the post.

One commenter harped on the notion that there are many interpretations of almost any biblical text, with learned scholars to back them up. This phenomenon, he claimed, is one of the many causes of the numerous denominations that fight back and forth in the Christian religion.
Each denomination, the argument goes, fervently believes the other denominations are dead wrong, each believes their own denomination is right, and each can marshal scholars to give “evidence” for their point (quotes in the original).

Notice, first off, that he misrepresents the real situation with the denominations. He exaggerates the amount of Bible disagreement. True, the disagreement between denominations can get quite heated, but I’m led to believe from his comments that almost every denomination contradict the others on almost every passage. This is not the case.

Some denominations arose not out of doctrinal disagreement, but out of cultural or geographical circumstance. Others were created because of a charismatic individual or two (John Wimber and the Vineyard movement come quickly to mind). Still others split off from mother churches due to unfortunate personality conflicts or moral failings. And with the ones that were created out of legitimate doctrinal schism, the amount of agreement between churches is quite large. Most protestant denominations, as well as Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, agree that God is a trinity, that such a concept is taught in the Bible, that Jesus was and is God incarnate, that He was crucified on a Roman Cross, rose from the dead three days later, and that human beings are sinful from birth. I could go on and list more, but you get the point: there are loud disagreements on some parts of doctrine and some Bible passages between some denominations (Typically, the Presbyterian denomination disagrees with the Methodist denomination on whether or not one can lose her salvation, for instance. Also, in the past, numerous unsavory things happened to those who held contrary positions to the group in power.), but the amount of agreement is substantial…otherwise events like ServeDay wouldn’t be possible, nor would the Lausanne Covenant have been written. Exaggerating the disagreement mischaracterizes the actual nature of things.

Secondly, from the notions that there are many interpretations of a particular text, each person believes he’s right, and each person can marshal scholars to back up their view, I think I’m supposed to conclude that therefore there’s no fact of the matter, or at least we can’t know who’s right. But this certainly doesn’t follow. It is a non sequitur. For heaven’s sake, the same is true in science, yet I don’t see anyone throwing up their hands in despair in that field.

Take global warming, for instance: the debate on whether or not humans cause climate change is a, er, hot one. Each side has its scholars. Does that mean we can’t know who is right? No. From the mere fact of fervent disagreement, you cannot get justified skepticism. You can’t get there from here. Strictly speaking, it doesn’t matter how many denominations disagree with each other–that doesn’t preclude the possibility of knowing the truth and knowing what a specific debated passage means.

If making an analogy between a book and science spooks you, I can trot out many plain communication examples: the latest Sotomayor hearings being just one.

While there are certainly a good number of passages that require deep study and research to get to the truth, on the whole, finding out what a passage means isn’t the proverbial rocket science. You use the same tools of communication you use every day: what is the genre? What is the literal context? What is the cultural/historical context? Are there any key words that require defining?

Anytime you read something or communicate with someone, you employ these tools. You don’t read the sports page like a poem (genre). If you read an email from your date last night that starts out with “I had a great time with you last night. Your jokes are funny!” but the next sentence reads, “but you are ugly as a junk yard dog and your breath smells like train exhaust,” you probably aren’t going to get a second date (literal context). If I am talking to an Igbo person (Nigerian tribe) and she calls me her “obim,” I need to consult an Igbo dictionary or ask an Igbo person what that means (“my heart,” its a way of saying “my love.”). And so on and so forth.

The same principles apply with the Bible, and though sometimes things can get a bit fuzzy, they mostly have a pretty good track record. We use these communication tools quite naturally all the time, but for some reason when it comes to the Bible, against their better judgment, many people have a tendency to throw them out the window, preferring to let their preferences and lifestyle trump common sense. Any person, cult, or denomination that twists a verse runs afoul of one of these natural interpretation tools.

If so much disagreement with the Bible means I must be skeptical of finding out a passage’s meaning, then the same skepticism follows for communication in general.

Most importantly, the commenter thinks he’s got it right about the Bible. He thinks that his point of view (that no interpretation is correct) is the right one on the Bible, and he believes it fervently, otherwise he wouldn’t be frequenting my blog and commenting as such. Everyone else doesn’t know the truth, but apparently he does.

Now, I’ve said before that I have no problem with someone claiming he knows the truth. I do it…no big deal. But the inconsistency is glaring.

If it’s not already apparent, the “there’s so many interpretations!” quip is not a substantive response, and let me tell you why: it allows a person to conveniently sidestep actually wrestling with a passage. The person who tosses it out in a debate like this avoids the work of actually looking at a passage and analyzing it, in favor of a mere dismissal. If you look at the comments in the post, you’ll notice that the “there’s so many interpretations!” commenter failed to actually examine and give an argument about any passages.

Dear friends: no matter how much evidence each side musters, *you* still have to sift through it and make up your own mind. It is like that in real life; why would it be any different with the Bible?

So the next time you are making an argument about what a Bible passage means, and your conversation partner replies, “but there are people that disagree. You say they are wrong, but they’ll say the same thing about you, and they’ll be able to cite scholars and evidence for their side,” just say:

So what?

Let it sink in: nothing interesting follows from that observation. To conclude that no one can know the meaning of the passage just from that is tantamount to a logical grand canyon leap.

Bible Verse Twisting

“People twist the Bible all the time to make it say whatever they want.”

Ever heard that one?  Have you ever been the one who said that?  Perhaps you just finished giving your view on homosexual behavior.  In the process, you cite a Bible verse or two, and the person you are conversing with responds with the above.  Where to go from there?

This can be difficult to respond to.  I mean, on the surface the claim looks solid.   Who can disagree with that?  I see people twist Bible verses all the time, so I’m sympathetic to the charge.  Yet, something odd is lurking under the surface, and it can be hard to suss out.

Really, most  of the time, that one liner is merely a dismissal of your case.  You give a verse, explain the context, and give an argument for its meaning, and someone merely dismisses it with a “ah, people twist the Bible all the time.”  You’ve made a specific case, and somehow, just by making the general observation that people twist the Bible, your whole case is defeated.  Really?  No, not really.  It’s a hand wave, not a substantive response.

Greg Koukl, in his book Tactics, gives another example conversation that shows this very well:

Johnny (your conversation partner):  People twist the Bible all the time to make it say whatever they want.”

You:  Well, you’re right about that.  It bugs me, too.  But your comment confuses me a little.  What does it have to do with the point I just made about homosexuality?

J:  Well, you are doing the same thing.

Y: Oh, so you think I’m twisting the Bible right now?

J: That’s right.

Y: Okay.  Now I understand what you were getting at, but I’m still confused.

J:  Why?

Y:  Because it seems to me you can’t know that I’m twisting the Bible just by pointing out that other people have twisted it, can you?

J: What do you mean?

Y: I mean that in this conversation you’re going to have to do more than simply point out that other people twist the Bible.  What do you think that might be?

J:  I don’t know.  What?

Y: You need to show that I’m actually twisting the verses.  Have you ever studied the passages I referred to?

J:  No.

Y:  Then how do you know I’m twisting them?

Perhaps the person has studied the passages…but I’m venturing a guess that most who throw out the one liner I led with haven’t…they are just trying to dismiss your argument because they don’t like it.

Regardless of whether or not the person has actually studied the passage in question, they must do better than just say “people twist the Bible all the time.”   What the person means to say is that *you* are twisting the Bible, but the general observation that others twist it doesn’t demonstrate that you are wrong.

No Proof that there’s no Proof

My conversation with the Rambling Taoist brought to mind another common one liner that can often stymie the otherwise intelligent believer:

No one can prove God’s existence (or Jesus’ existence, or that the Bible is God’s word, etc, etc…just toss in any number of Christian staples).  There is no evidence whatsoever.  It’s all belief and faith.

You ever get that one thrown at you?  I sure have.  Really bugs me, not because it’s a good retort, but because it’s difficult to know where to start.  There are so many issues and missteps and blatant assertions tied into one that it’s quite a gnarly knot.  I get  tongue tied just thinking about it.

It is important that when someone says that to you, that you never let them off the hook.  It is just too easy to throw it out there without backing it up.  It is a particularly convenient one liner for those who aren’t really interested in God and for those who have not thought deeply about God.  That’s not to say that everyone who says that hasn’t thought deeply about God, it’s just that it’s easy for folks like that to resort to it.  Rather than launching into disproving the “no proof” belief, force your conversation partner to shoulder his responsibility: he made a claim, now he must back it up.  No reason for you to launch into Kalam mode.

Here are some very good questions you can ask, questions that your conversation partner needs to square with in order for the “no proof” assertion to be more than a mere smokescreen:

  • Describe the God that you don’t think exists.
  • what would count as “proof” (i.e. scientific evidence, God writing “believe me” in the sky, or something more reasonable)?
  • what would you do if you  came to know God existed (i.e. would you follow him and obey, or continue in your disinterested state?)?  What would you do if I “proved” to you that God existed?
  • what, specifically, are the arguments and evidence you’ve heard so far, and why do you reject them?
  • similarly: great minds have been writing about evidence and reasons for God’s existence for milennia.  Scientists, philosophers, and historians have all had their say.  Who have you read, and why do you reject what they have to say?

Can you add any?

The third bullet is especially pertinent.  I’ve encountered a good number of folks who admit they would not bend the knee or make a change in their lives, even if they knew God existed.

Actually, all bullets are important.  For example, when you hit on the second one, chances are the person has an unreasonably high bar for proof of God’s existence (example: seeing God, having God appear to him/speak audibly to him,etc).  The bar he sets for all his other beliefs (including his skeptic tendencies, atheistic/agnostic beliefs, or beliefs in any other religion/philosophy) aren’t nearly as high.  By asking the question and then following up with some more astute queries, you can suss out that he’s cheating.

The last two will most likely bring about a most surprising thing: perhaps the person has read and considered a lot of arguments about God’s existence, but most likely, they haven’t.  Some haven’t even read one book!  Some have read strawman arguments set up by their own crowd (like the ones Richard Dawkins sets up), but precious few have read and deeply analyzed the great theistic minds themselves.  Some have read snippets of the Bible summarized in “New Atheist” books, but many haven’t read the whole Bible.  Some have objections to what they find therein, but precious few actually try to seek out and research answers to those objections.

Let’s face it: the “no proof” statement is a bold one, and most people can’t bring what they need to bring in order to strut that statement with confidence.

Keep those questions above in mind when talking to the “no proofers,” for chances are, they will dig up some very interesting and revealing behind-the-assertion information.  My hunch is that a majority of the time, you’ll get more assertions, blank stares, or an evasive changing of the subject.

Connecting the Dots

As a follower of Christ, I frequently get challenges that stop me dead straight.  I know the answer to them, but somehow I become tongue tied in the moment trying to explain things.  Perhaps its fear that the person asking won’t like the answer, or perhaps its because the answer is quite complicated and will take a while to explain.  The thought “where to begin?” puts peanut butter in my mouth, so to speak.

The question “What about the person who is sincerely following his own religion and trying to be the best person he can be?  Will he go to hell just because he doesn’t believe in Jesus?” is one of those challenges.

I know the answer: Romans 1-3, as well as many other places in Scripture, is quite clear on what our human problem is and how Jesus solves it.  I know that getting things wrong on a supposed theological quiz isn’t what condemns us; our sin does, and since everyone sins, everyone is condemned, the sincere aboriginee included.  Jesus is the solution to that predicament, not the problem.  If anyone sincerely seeks after God (and the Scriptures are clear that no one does unless God moves first…everyone runs from Him.), God will see to it that he hears about Christ.

The thing is that it is hard to explain succinctly to a person.  Even many who identify as Christian are confused on this subject!  Greg Koukl, in his most recent book Tactics, shares a conversation in which he beautifully answers that challenge in a sensible way:

Shannon (who described herself as a Christian “with a strong relationship with the Lord.”):  What about someone who believes in God?  What about the person who is sincerely following his own religion and trying to be the best person he can be?

Koukl:  Why should anyone become a Christian in the first place?  You and I are Christians.  What benefit does putting our trust in Jesus give us?

S: Jesus saves us

K: From what?

S: He saves us from our sins.

K: Right.  You might say we have a spiritual disease called sin, and Jesus did something on the cross that healed the disease.  Can simply believing in God heal that disease?

S: No

K:  Can trying our best to be a good person heal it, or being really religious, or even being completely sincere?  Can any of those things forgive our sin?

S: (shakes head)

K:  None of these things in themselves can take away our guilt.  We’d still be dying from our spiritual disease, wouldn’t we?

S: (agrees)

K:  If religion, or sincerity, or ‘doing our best’ cannot save you and me, then how can any of those things save someone else?  Either Jesus rescues us by taking the punishment for our sin on himself, or we are not save and we have to pay for our own crimes.  It’s no more complicated than that.

Notice two things:  For one, Koukl gave Shannon no new information.  He merely recalled for her things she already knew, but she just hadn’t connected the dots, so to speak.  Secondly, he accomplished that primarily by using questions.

I learned a lot about how to handle that question from this one exchange in his book.  Hopefully you can glean something from it too.

Conversing with Mormons

“Christianity and Mormonism are basically the same.  Sure, there are a few differences, but if I, a Mormon, were to go into a Christian church, I would fully agree with just about everything I heard there.”

Ever heard something like that when talking with LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a.k.a Mormons) church members?  I have heard that sentiment in just about every conversation I’ve ever had with LDS folks.  Without fail, it comes up quickly, and almost every time the LDS person I’m talking with is quick to identify the Mormon faith as Christian.

I had two conversations with Mormons last week that followed this pattern.

I often run into LDS church members.  I always enjoy their company, for they are almost always eager to do good, and we have a lot in common as to our views on morality.  Such was the case this past week.

A little background: last week I was working as a counselor at a wrestling camp in Riverside, CA.  Wrestlers and coaches from all over the country came to, well, wrestle for a week.  The schedule, almost literally, was: wake up, eat, wrestle, eat, wrestle, eat, wrestle, go to bed.  Go, go, go, with very little down time.  There wasn’t much time for conversation, but despite the busyness I managed to get into some spiritual conversations with some of the staff who were LDS.

Within moments, both folks confidently expressed the thought I led with above: Mormonism is Christian.  Any differences are tantamount to denominational differences within the Christian religion.

I’ve never been able to buy this.  Whenever someone expresses that thought, I ask: why, then, do Mormon missionaries regularly evangelize other devout Christians?  For the record, I don’t have a problem with evangelization.  After all, I evangelize and try to persuade others to bend the knee to Christ.  Christ commands it and did it himself in the Bible.

religionfacts.com

religionfacts.com

My contention is that it seems strange for Mormons to evangelize folks like me if Mormonism is Christian.  Isn’t it odd for Christians to evangelize other Christians?  After all, I don’t go next door to my friendly neighborhood baptists and try to persuade them like they are non-believers.  I might disagree with some of their theological doctrines and have passionate debate with them on those points, but I don’t treat them like they are outside the faith.

Yet, if Mormonism is essentially Christian, then that is what Mormon missionaries do!  Every time Mormon missionaries come to my door and I express my Christian convictions to them, they proceed to evangelize as if I am a non-believer.  They clearly act and talk as if I am not saved.  In fact, according to Joseph Smith himself, the beliefs of traditional Christianity are an “abomination” to God the Father.  The language of apostacy is used for guys like me.

Again, I don’t have a problem with that per se, it’s just that it’s odd to call someone from another denomination an “apostate.”

When I brought this up, both Mormons I talked with said the same thing: evangelical Christians have some of the truth, but the LDS church has the “full” gospel.  If I become a Mormon, I am embracing everything that Christ taught.  This is a very common response among LDS missionaries as well.

While they might be genuine in that response, it doesn’t work for one very large reason: when you compare core Mormon doctrine with what is in the Bible, you find some glaring differences, just like you find when you compare Islam with what is taught in the Bible.

The LDS church disagrees with traditional Christianity in who God is (more here), the number of gods, the nature of His relationship to us, who Jesus is (spirit bro of Satan), how one can be saved, the plan of salvation, and original sin.  Mormons embrace doctrines such as exaltation.  That just scratches the surface of differences.

Those are no small differences.

If I become a Mormon, I would not be embracing the “fullness” of the gospel; I am embracing another faith alltogether. It is clear that we’re talking about two separate religions here, and since they contradict each other (either Jesus is or is not a spirit brother of Satan, not both.  Either God has a body of flesh and bones, or He doesn’t, not both.), both can’t be true.

This does not mean that Mormonism is false.  That is a separate question.  I just don’t see why admitting that Mormonism and Christianity are two different faiths is so controversial.

Though the two I talked with this week weren’t offended, many times Mormons get a bit antsy when you suggest that their faith isn’t Christian.  This is just so strange to me.  After all, no Muslim gets offended when you suggest that Christianity and Islam are two different faiths, and that both can’t be true.  My hunch is that, with the LDS missionaries in particular, they are happy to treat me as an apostate when it suits their evangelical purpose, and happy to treat me as a brother when it happens to suit their evangelical purpose.

Mormons would be doing themselves a favor as far as their credibility is concerned if they just owned up to the wide gulf between the two religions.

There are similarities, but it’s the differences that matter more.  After all, to paraphrase Greg Koukl, sure, aspirin and arsenic are both white and come in tablet form, but one would do well to pay attention to the differences when deciding which pill one should take for a headache.

Bark Bigger Than the Bite

Dr. Chris Forbes addresses the claims of the internet film Zeitgeist.

Another, longer treatment by Forbes can be found here.

Holy Ostracism, Batman!

How should you react to a friend who claims to be a believer, but openly celebrates a sin and seeks a church that will embrace his sin?

Though the sin in question in the video is homosexual behavior, the same would go for a number of openly celebrated sins.

Recently there was a big ta-do about this video on Facebook.  Here are some of the comments (all names have been changed to protect the innocent):

Suzy Q–

Holy ostracism is a last resort. Mercy is a good first resort. Talking to the person, trying to help them through any confusion, reminding them of the Lord they have lost sight of, and, perhaps smacking them around a bit. Ostracism only works on people who are invested enough in your community to care about being ostracised.

Frankie V–

I don’t think it’s right to ostracize anyone. I think it’s God’s job to change someone’s heart, not mine. Of course the woman he spoke of was crushed.  No one wants to lose their entire support structure. how would that community know that she didn’t end the relationship solely because she felt like an outcast? I don’t agree with the concept of “holy ostracism”. It’s a little ridiculous.  When he says “it worked” it sounds like it was a manipulative ploy. Kinda creepy. Reminds me of the office when Dwight tells Andy he’s going to shun him.

MJ–

There are gifted Christian counselors (many of whom God has delivered from homosexuality) who are specially trained to understand and deal with those battling this problem. If your Christian friend is open to such pastoral counseling, then that would be the first option. Ostracising should only be a last resort.

A good friend of mine confided in me that they were battling this problem and considering suicide. I immediately made an appointment for them (without their permission) with a specially trained counselor. When they met together God used this specially trained counselor to radically change my friend’s life… that person is now happily married and walking in victory through the power of God’s Spirit.

Clark K–

I Cor also says that a woman who prays or worships with her head uncovered dishonors herself, however, I don’t see people lined up with shawls at any church I go to. Are men with long hair directed to the barbers before being allowed to “dishonor themselves” in church? When was the last time some one spoke in tongues at your church service? That apparently is a key sign to believers, as is prophecy.

The Bible is full of instructions given in a cultural context. Not to discount the truth therein, but how many of it’s commands are actually followed as spelled out? Circumcision isn’t done on the eighth day, we wear gold, and braids. We work, drive, & cook meals on the sabbath and we sue those who wrong us in court. Am I now tepid?

What say I?  Welp, a few make some good points about giving grace to the humble. Of course, if a person wants to battle his sin (whatever that sin is), we should envelope him with help and grace. If a person comes to church seeking support to repent, we should absolutely rally around him. This goes for lying, adultery, gossip, homosexual behavior, etc.

We should welcome those who visit the church, open sin or not.  I once heard of a gay couple that visited a church holding hands.  As soon as they sat down, someone next to them loudly said, “disgusting!”  That *is* disgusting…and I’m not referring to the gay couple.

But the situation Piper is talking about is totally different. This person is claiming to be a brother and is actively embracing his sin and seeking to justify it.

Say a married man claims to be a believer but openly celebrates his adulterous relationship. He seeks out an environment that will support his relationship with his mistress. Are we to say that we should slap him on the back like nothing is wrong? If not, then how is it different for celebrating any other sin (whether homosexual behavior or something else)?  If we have a problem with the adulterous man, why the special pleading here?  What’s the relevant difference?  I think their concerns are about a totally different situation.  To continue to be with this guy isn’t mercy…it’s enabling.

Law to the proud, grace to the humble. By looking at the video, doesn’t seem like this guy in question is humble.

Also, though many might express personal distaste for Piper’s points, the fact of the matter is that they are incredibly biblical.  Church discipline comes straight out of 1 Corinthians 5.  For MJ above, what reasons does he have for saying that his reading of the “woman uncovering her head” part is the correct one? What does he think that passage actually means, and why does he think that?  He’s making some pretty skimpy claims, and he needs to defend them.

There are pretty good reasons for drawing church discipline principles from 1 Cor 5. Pointing to other parts of Scripture that might or might not be difficult to interpret doesn’t overshadow those reasons.

Lastly, yes, it is God’s job to change a heart, but He uses us to do it! Saying it is God’s job does not relinquish us of the responsibility to trust and obey Him in situations that might make us unpopular.