“Christianity and Mormonism are basically the same. Sure, there are a few differences, but if I, a Mormon, were to go into a Christian church, I would fully agree with just about everything I heard there.”
Ever heard something like that when talking with LDS (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a.k.a Mormons) church members? I have heard that sentiment in just about every conversation I’ve ever had with LDS folks. Without fail, it comes up quickly, and almost every time the LDS person I’m talking with is quick to identify the Mormon faith as Christian.
I had two conversations with Mormons last week that followed this pattern.
I often run into LDS church members. I always enjoy their company, for they are almost always eager to do good, and we have a lot in common as to our views on morality. Such was the case this past week.
A little background: last week I was working as a counselor at a wrestling camp in Riverside, CA. Wrestlers and coaches from all over the country came to, well, wrestle for a week. The schedule, almost literally, was: wake up, eat, wrestle, eat, wrestle, eat, wrestle, go to bed. Go, go, go, with very little down time. There wasn’t much time for conversation, but despite the busyness I managed to get into some spiritual conversations with some of the staff who were LDS.
Within moments, both folks confidently expressed the thought I led with above: Mormonism is Christian. Any differences are tantamount to denominational differences within the Christian religion.
I’ve never been able to buy this. Whenever someone expresses that thought, I ask: why, then, do Mormon missionaries regularly evangelize other devout Christians? For the record, I don’t have a problem with evangelization. After all, I evangelize and try to persuade others to bend the knee to Christ. Christ commands it and did it himself in the Bible.
religionfacts.com
My contention is that it seems strange for Mormons to evangelize folks like me if Mormonism is Christian. Isn’t it odd for Christians to evangelize other Christians? After all, I don’t go next door to my friendly neighborhood baptists and try to persuade them like they are non-believers. I might disagree with some of their theological doctrines and have passionate debate with them on those points, but I don’t treat them like they are outside the faith.
Yet, if Mormonism is essentially Christian, then that is what Mormon missionaries do! Every time Mormon missionaries come to my door and I express my Christian convictions to them, they proceed to evangelize as if I am a non-believer. They clearly act and talk as if I am not saved. In fact, according to Joseph Smith himself, the beliefs of traditional Christianity are an “abomination” to God the Father. The language of apostacy is used for guys like me.
Again, I don’t have a problem with that per se, it’s just that it’s odd to call someone from another denomination an “apostate.”
When I brought this up, both Mormons I talked with said the same thing: evangelical Christians have some of the truth, but the LDS church has the “full” gospel. If I become a Mormon, I am embracing everything that Christ taught. This is a very common response among LDS missionaries as well.
While they might be genuine in that response, it doesn’t work for one very large reason: when you compare core Mormon doctrine with what is in the Bible, you find some glaring differences, just like you find when you compare Islam with what is taught in the Bible.
The LDS church disagrees with traditional Christianity in who God is (more here), the number of gods, the nature of His relationship to us, who Jesus is (spirit bro of Satan), how one can be saved, the plan of salvation, and original sin. Mormons embrace doctrines such as exaltation. That just scratches the surface of differences.
Those are no small differences.
If I become a Mormon, I would not be embracing the “fullness” of the gospel; I am embracing another faith alltogether. It is clear that we’re talking about two separate religions here, and since they contradict each other (either Jesus is or is not a spirit brother of Satan, not both. Either God has a body of flesh and bones, or He doesn’t, not both.), both can’t be true.
This does not mean that Mormonism is false. That is a separate question. I just don’t see why admitting that Mormonism and Christianity are two different faiths is so controversial.
Though the two I talked with this week weren’t offended, many times Mormons get a bit antsy when you suggest that their faith isn’t Christian. This is just so strange to me. After all, no Muslim gets offended when you suggest that Christianity and Islam are two different faiths, and that both can’t be true. My hunch is that, with the LDS missionaries in particular, they are happy to treat me as an apostate when it suits their evangelical purpose, and happy to treat me as a brother when it happens to suit their evangelical purpose.
Mormons would be doing themselves a favor as far as their credibility is concerned if they just owned up to the wide gulf between the two religions.
There are similarities, but it’s the differences that matter more. After all, to paraphrase Greg Koukl, sure, aspirin and arsenic are both white and come in tablet form, but one would do well to pay attention to the differences when deciding which pill one should take for a headache.
You know, we had a couple Mormon missionaries show up at my door today. I sent them packing. Usually, I’d stop to talk to them for a while and see how little they know about Joe Smith and how little they’ll admit about their own teachings.
One of my sons is sick, though, and we were all tired, my wife is 8.5 months pregnant and was not dressed for company … I almost felt guilty about it.
Not quite, though.
Rich,
Fair enough post. Nice change from people like wickle (I’ll get to wickle in a moment).
To address your point. You’ve got to realize what we Mormons mean when we use the word “Christian.”
We mean someone who believes in Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement.
But that’s about it.
We do not equate “Christian” with “correct.” Nor do we equate it with “true church” or anything else. It just means that, like us, you believe in Jesus’ status as Son of God, and his ability to save people.
Now wickle,
I know plenty about “Joe Smith.” I doubt you could bring up anything I haven’t already heard about him.
I ultimately concluded most of the criticisms of him were mere sideshows to the real important questions Mormonism raises.
If Mormon theology is simply better than that held by traditional Christianity, then traditional Christians have some explaining to do. And simply calling Joseph a lying charlatan, or pedophile, or thief, or whatever else you want isn’t good enough.
Most anti-Mormon arguments are essentially ad hominem. Much easier to attack Joseph Smith. But they never seem to want to touch the actual theology.
Easier to laugh at how implausible the story of how the Book of Mormon came about is. Who wants to actually talk about the spiritual content?
Seems like someone is trying to distract us from the real issues here.
Why would that be?
Seth,
Thanks for dropping by and offering your thoughts.
I think, though, that your definition of “Christian” is quite watered down, so much so that a Muslim would qualify as a Christian on your definition. Talk to almost any devout Muslim and they will be emphatic: he “believes” in Jesus as the “son of God.” They even believe he’s the “Messiah”! But when you probe further, the meaning they attach to the terms is quite different: what they mean by “believe,” “Jesus,” “son of God,” and “Messiah” is worlds away from what Christians mean.
This highlights a big problem in Mormon-Christian dialogue: we use the same terms but have widely different meanings. These differences should not be glossed over.
Really?
I hadn’t heard that Muslims believed Jesus was the literal son of God – except maybe in the generic sense that we’re all “sons of God.”
Yes, exactly…that’s the sense they attach to that phrase, but they routinely gloss over the difference in meaning, and it confuses the person they are conversing with.
My whole point in bringing it up is that the same thing happens in discussions with Mormons. I have been in too many conversations where the LDS person glossed over important distinctions in meaning of terms. This does not productively advance discussion and is something we could do without.
Just a comment on the word apostate. The word apostate in the Mormon world usually refers to people who have once accepted the truth, then later rejected it to such an extent that they now fight against God and his church. In the Mormon view, they are like Satan who also knows the truth but rejects it and fights against God and his church. The more they knew before going the other way, the worse off they are.
We see people of other churches as either not accepting the truth or more likely, never having had sufficient opportunity to learn the truth. Therefore, we respect the fact that people belong to other churches but want to teach them so that they can see what they are missing.
That is why it is more likely to see someone trying to bring down the Mormon church than Mormons thrying to bring down other religions.
Keep in mind Rich that we’ve developed as a religion in a fairly isolated geographic enclave (the Intermountain West of the United States) for the past couple hundred years. As a result, we’ve developed our own theological lingo and language that – while phrased in familiar English – is quite different from American Protestantism.
For example “salvation” to a Protestant might mean living in heaven forever – pretty much the top possible goal for any human being.
But for a Mormon (depending on how informed) “salvation” simply means being resurrected and receiving some sort of glory in the hereafter, but not necessarily the highest possible level of Mormon afterlife reward.
And still other Mormons will sloppily equate “salvation” with “exaltation” meaning that anything less than the top level of heaven (reserved for only a few) is not “salvation” to them.
It’s a pretty crucial distinction that makes a lot of difference when you are asking a Mormon the typical Evangelical lede – “are you saved?”
Another example – the word “god.”
It means more than one thing in Mormonism.
On the one hand, we have Capital-G “God.” This is God the Father, the object of our worship, our literal spirit father. The one we seek to emulate, but never expect to surpass.
So when you ask if a Mormon believes we can become “god” – well… not in this sense we don’t.
But we also view the word “god” to refer to any exalted being of the same species. We consider ourselves of the same species as God the Father and seek to emulate him. If we succeed, then we become “gods” (as referred to in both Mormon scripture and in the Bible). But it doesn’t mean we believe we fly off to some part of the universe not currently under Eloheim’s control and “set up shop” as an independent new God. We view ourselves as eternally subordinate to God the Father.
But, SOME Mormons may actually believe that they will become an independent god of some sort.
So, it’s very crucial to question and clarify with the INDIVIDUAL Mormon you are talking with. Views may vary widely.
This surprises some people who have heard how monolithic and disciplined the LDS Church is. But there is a surprising heterodoxy within Mormon belief. So you really have to talk to the individual Mormon, and not a stereotype of the entire group that you may have.
Incidentally, an Evangelical friend of mine just posted an explanation of the source of some major misunderstanding between Mormons and Evangelicals over on Times and Seasons (a Mormon blog). Here’s the link:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/06/why-were-confused/
Peter,
What do you mean by “bring down”? If I write on the differences between Mormon and Christian doctrine, give reasons why I think Mormon doctrine is in error, and talk about other reasons why I do not think the Mormon church is a church that follows the real Jesus, am I “bringing down” the Mormon religion?
If so, then Mormons are guilty of “bringing down” other religions too, since this is exactly what they do as missionaries.
I’ll say this again: I don’t have a problem with this, since I do it all the time. But I do have a problem when Mormons do it themselves but passively aggressively cry foul when Christians do it.
Seth,
I think your most recent comment illustrates my point.
Thanks for commenting. Hope you stop by more.
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On my way home from Michigan yesterday, I listened to this gentleman on the radio who shared his story of how he converted from being a Mormon to a Christian. All his life, he thought what the Mormon church taught him was real and correct. He said that he even thought that he, too, was considered a Christian.
A friend, named Tommy, from school (7th grade at the time) had asked him what church he went to. He said he went to LDS. Tommy thought nothing of it. Well, three weeks later, Tommy came back to his friend and said that he looked it up and found that he was a Mormon. The man confirmed that was what he was.
Tommy told the man that he had looked up Mormon in the encyclopedia and found that Mormons did not believe the same thing as Christians. He pointed out all the specific things we have gone over before: Mormons believe you can become a god and that there ware many gods. Mormons believe that there are three levels to heaven. Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
Tommy soon realized that these beliefs and more were contradictory to the Christian belief and God’s Holy Word, the Bible. It was then that a seed of knowledge was planted in this man’s heart.
This man talked about how, as he continued to go to church at LDS, he began to challenge the thinking of the Mormon Church. He began comparing the Book of Mormon to God’s Holy Word – the Bible. It was then that he saw the real truth about who Christ was and is.
My question is, how can one live a life of contradiction? I mean, how can the Mormons sit there a say “Let me send you a Bible and The Book of Mormon” for free. Those two books contradict each other. One is right and one is wrong.
Biblical scripture specifically address talking out of both sides of your mouth. Mormons are double minded. In one hand, they have the Bible and call themselves a Christian (someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only son of God and is the ONLY WAY to heaven) and in the other hand they hold the Book of Mormon and condem true Christians for their beliefs.
My friends, Christianity and Mormonism are WORLDS apart. We do not share the same beliefs. We do not worship the same god.
I challenge all Mormons to set aside your Book of Mormon and spend one year, just one year, reading through the Bible. Challenge yourself to really find out who God is and how he wants to play a role in your life. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to you.
If after spending a year studying God’s Word, you still think that Christianity is a farce and the “wrong” truth, then gladly pick up your Book of Mormon and move on with your life.
But I guarantee you, you will find out who God is and what He wants for your life if you would just open up the Bible. Don’t rely on any Christian Church or the Mormon Church to help you through the Bible. Do it on your own. Use your mind and pray to seek God’s presence as you do this. Ask God for Wisdom and to open your eyes so that you can know the whole truth. After all, God is all powerful, is He not? Isn’t granting Wisdom and opening our eyes something He can easily do for us? Can He do it without the help from either of the Churches? Can God do it by you just reading the Bible? Yes He can!
I love God and have a strong desire to do His will. I seek His will, not so that I can have a higher place in heaven or to become a god. No, I do this because I love God for what he has done for me and what He means to me. If it were not for Christ, I would have no way of truly knowing and communinig with the one true God.
My last story to share is from a Woman I met and lived with for 6 months while I was in Colorado working. She was from Utah had grown up Mormon but had convereted to Christianity. She shared how all her life she tried so hard to be good and do good. But, as many of us know, she failed miserably. She felt no connection with God and felt like she was doomed for failure. Then she met a Christian young man who asked her why she was working so hard to please God. He shared with her that Christ’s gift of Salvation was free. God did not expect you to work for your Salvation. He only asked that you realize you were a sinner, believe and accept that Christ died on the Cross for your sins, and believe that Christ is the ONLY way to make it into heaven. She said she never realized that was all she had to do. She questioned him about works and having good works to get to heaven. He helped her realize that God does not expect you to work for your salvation. However, after being saved and accepting God’s work of grace, you will have a desire in your heart to do God’s will for your life. It is then that God will use your life for His good purpose. That seed started her on the road to having a relationship with God that she had never experienced before.
I am not telling Mormons to drop what they are doing or believe all because a Christian says so. What I am suggesting is that perhaps, you need to find out more before about the God we worship and love so much. Dive into the Bible to see what it is all about. Don’t take anyone elses word for it. You do it yourself. Pick up a Bible and let God lead you. If after all that, you still feel we are wrong, then at least you will know everything we believe it. (not what someone in the Mormon church is telling you). You will know it first hand.
I will get off my soap box now. God bless you all and mostly to those who take on this one year challenge.
I agree with Seth. When a Mormon claims to be “Christian” he is not claiming that he is “saved.” But that is usually what an Evangelical means when they claim to be a “Christian.” For example, I was told by an Evangelical fellow that the Pope is not a Christian because he is not saved.
So when Mormons and Evangelicals are arguing over whether or not Mormons are Christians they usually have different definitions in mind. When a Mormon says, “I’m a Christian” all he intends to communicate is that Jesus Christ is at the very center of his theology….he isn’t even trying to say that his theology is correct.
You people are all so crazy. How can you believe any of this nonsense and then argue about which version (mormon or christian) is accurate? Anyways- can someone just explain to me where Cane and Abels wives came from?